Home > Brandenburg, money > The New Testament Teaches Tithing pt. 3

The New Testament Teaches Tithing pt. 3

April 23, 2008

Not every tithing advocate does the best or even an adequate job in making a Scriptural case.  However, I cringe quite a bit at what is said against those who believe Scripture teaches tithing. What do you think of these?

  • It is the “other side of the story” when 97% of the pulpits have pro-tithing sermons and discipline those who try to question them or ask for open discussions.
  • You are playing games with statistics. Preachers have been trying to push tithing onto their congregations. . . . When are you going to learn, stop it, and go back to preaching grace-giving. . . . You are teaching by your actions that Law out-gives Grace
  • Be sure and ignore my many pages of reasons to refute this argument. . . . Your principle allows YOU to be the judge of what applies and what does not. I contend that NOTHING in God’s Word about tithing from Abraham or Jacob is followed by your church or any other church today.
  • Why do you give this story? It has nothing to do with tithing. Do you want to kill everybody who disagrees with you?
  • Is that what you teach in your church? Do you teach your members to lay everything they own at your feet and then distribute them to every church member evenly so you can all live in a commune?
  • It would work well if we could get the government involved, to make sure everyone gave his/her due. I have been conversing with officials on this matter and they recognize the work I have put into this matter. They have appointed me as a receiver to collect from all the Christians in this area.

The tone you hear is quite common in the anti-tithe people.  Since I’ve been a pastor, I have found money and children to be the two most controversial subjects.  This one falls under money and you can hear the bitterness.  And their problem?  People are giving at least 10% toward the Lord’s work. They’d like to stop it, you know, for the Lord.

It amazes me how much men who claim such a NT emphasis like to enunciate the gritty details of tithing under Mosaic law, so that we’ll conclude that all tithing is wrong.  I understand that the tithe in Israel was practiced differently than we do today.  That’s why I don’t want to talk about exactly how they practiced the tithe under the Mosaic system.  The principle, however, continues today.

1. The New Testament Does Not Do Away with Old Testament Standards
2. Jesus Taught Tithing
3. Jesus Taught Proportional Giving
4. Giving to the Church for Scriptural Purposes Continued
5. Paul Teaches Physical Remuneration for Spiritual Benefit in Identical Fashion As It Was Done in the Old Testament

We spent the bulk of our time in pt. 2 thinking about 1 Corinthians 9:7-14.  Did you notice how that Paul used the Old Testament law to make his point there?  In 9:9 he quoted Deuteronomy 25:4.  That text is quoted only by Paul and only one other time—in 1 Timothy 5:17-18.  Paul writes:

Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.  For the scripture saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer is worthy of his reward.

Connect the dots between 1 Corinthians 9:9-14 and 1 Timothy 5:17-18.  Paul uses Deuteronomy 25:4 in both of them.  Here Paul is talking about “elders,” and in the context you can see that they aren’t of the old men variety.  They are those in the office of the pastor, the presbuteros, the executive of the assembly.  They rule.  They labour in the word and doctrine.  It says they are deserving of double honour.  “Honour” does relate to money.  BDAG lexicon says first:

1) a valuing by which the price is fixed 1a) of the price itself 1b) of the price paid or received for a person or thing bought or sold

And then the next verse we get Deuteronomy 25:4 again.  1 Corinthians had already been written when 1 Timothy came along.  1 Corinthians 9 establishes that the tithe (“even so”–in the same manner that the Levites were taken care of) was to take care of Christian labourers who had benefited you spiritually.  Paul wouldn’t require it himself even though he said he had the right to.  However, in 1 Timothy 5:17-18, he consistently applies this principle, the spirit of this law, by saying that this was to be done with the office of the pastor.

Russell Kelly, preeminent anti-tither, wrote:

Do you give your whole tithe to Levites who are your ushers, deacons, choir, musicians, builders and politicians? . . . . Do you limit tithe recipients to one family or do you preach the “priesthood of all believers”?

And then he added:  “Like I said, you practice NONE of the OT tithe principles!”  I’m going to let you evaluate most of that quote on your own in light of what you’ve read.  One question though:  Is every believer in the office of the pastor?  But let’s go a little further, because I believe that Galatians 6:6-10 relates here, which says:

Let him that is taught in the word communicate unto him that teacheth in all good things.  Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.  For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.  And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.  As we have therefore opportunity, let us do good unto all men, especially unto them who are of the household of faith.

The idea of giving tangible remuneration to those who have benefited you spiritually is reinforced by this text.  The person taught is to share with the person teaching.  The law of sowing and reaping comes in (vv. 7-8).  What is the doing good in v. 10?  It is the one taught sharing his carnal things with the one who taught him spiritual things.  By doing so, he does not grow weary in well-doing and he does good to those especially of the household of faith.

6.  There Was a Storehouse in the OT, the Temple Worship, and in the NT the church is the Temple and the Storehouse

Malachi 3:10 reads:

Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.

God called for the tithes to be brought into the storehouse, which was the temple there in post-exilic Israel, to support and maintain the corporate worship of Israel.  The church (local only) is the temple of God in this dispensation.  1 Corinthians 3:16-17 states:

Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?  If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

He says “ye” (plural) are the temple of God.  The church is God’s Temple.  Jesus promised His special presence for the assembly (Matthew 18:20; 28:20; Revelation 1:19-2:1).  The presence of God that inhabited the OT tabernacle and temple indwells the congregation of the Lord today.  Therefore, the church is God’s storehouse in the age in which we live.  Paul communicates this in 1 Corinthians 16:1-2:

Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye.  Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.

The store was the congregation.  They laid up the collection proportionately by the saints on the Lord’s Day.  A pattern for giving for the NT times is set here for us to follow.  We bring our tithes and offerings to the church, the storehouse in the age in which we live.

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  1. April 23, 2008 at 1:29 pm

    Pastor Brandenburg – All you ever do is talk about money!

    Just kidding, great post. I especially think the point about the local church being the replacement for the Temple is an important truth that needs to be reiterated over and over again. I think a lot of the reason why the anti-tithers have it so wrong is because their ecclesiology is wrong.

  2. April 23, 2008 at 7:58 pm

    Fully agreed. As one that is dependent for his living on the people of God, I am glad there are Christian brethren who have the vision to support a man who teaches them the Word of God and cares for their souls. God is very gracious and wise to have written this into His Word. Missions can thrive anywhere in the world because the maintenance of God’s work doesn’t depend on an amount, it depends on a percentage. Having ten people with income, a pastor can be freed to work full time in the God’s work at an average income in his area caring for souls. It is simple and effective.

  3. April 24, 2008 at 6:30 am

    I believe in Spirit-led giving. Not the type of giving that is based on a whim or a guess. Its interesting that we allow the Holy Spirit to guide us in the priceless decisions in life, but when it comes to our minor paycheck, we leave that up to tithing. Kind of the easy way out, if you ask me.

    -Jared

  4. April 24, 2008 at 8:08 am

    Jared,

    The Spirit moved on holy men of God to write the NT. The Sword of the Spirit is the Word of God. I’m Spirit led in the truest sense.

  5. April 24, 2008 at 9:00 am

    When Jared calls tithing the “easy way out”, it sounds like when people say that we shouldn’t execute a murderer because that’s the easy way out, execution is too good for this man; he should have to “suffer” in jail! These same people also argue in other instances that murder is cruel and unusual. So which is it? Is tithing a yoke and burden that sinister pastors conspire to lay on their unwitting flocks, or is it the easy way out?

    It would be interesting as well to see if these folks see any connection between the Old Testament Sabbath and our “first day of the week”. If they do, then I wonder what might be their method of dismissing all the commands connected to the OT Sabbath?

  6. April 24, 2008 at 10:18 am

    Hi Kent

    So the church is to the OT Temple as baptism is to OT circumcision? …. right?

    I think there is a bit of a flaw in your argument here. Also please note 1 Co 6.19, the believer’s physical body is the temple (naos) of God. Same word as 1 Co 3. So I would have trouble pressing the storehouse idea on that basis.

    Having said that, I teach the tithe as a good guideline for the minimum for spiritual Christians. Not as a matter of law but a matter of joy.

    Regards
    Don Johnson
    Jer 33.3

  7. April 24, 2008 at 1:07 pm

    Don,

    Thanks for coming over. I always enjoy it. I’ll need some help though. Where does the NT make the parallel between baptism and circumcision?

    I believe 1 Corinthians 6:19 and 1 Corinthians 3:16 do go together. The church isn’t an actual building, although the metaphor is used in 1 Corinthians 3. The church is the people that make up the metaphorical building. Each body part makes up the temple as a living stone. The Holy Spirit indwells the body of each member and thus the entire church. This is how I’ve already understood it. The Holy Spirit works through each individual believer, but a test of that is the agreement of the church—that is the unity of the Spirit that we see in Eph. 4.

    When Paul quotes Deuteronomy 25:4 in 1 Cor. 9 and 1 Tim. 5 is that a matter of law for NT believers?

  8. April 24, 2008 at 5:27 pm

    It seems like several, including Jared, have interpreted this discussion to mean that we teach ONLY tithing. Malachi 3 teaches tithes AND offerings. So does the New Testament, and so do we. That means that tithing is only a beginning. The rest can be Spirit led because there are no other limitations. “(2Co 9:7) Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, [so let him give]; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.” I don’t think anybody involved in this discussion would disagree with this latter statement. It’s only the tithing that has so many ruffled.

  9. April 24, 2008 at 6:53 pm

    Here is a thought that goes along with what Jared might be saying. Paul says in II Cor 9:7 as a man purposeth in his heart,,, not grudgingly or out of neccesity……God loveth a cheerful giver. How can I be cheerful if I have to pay my 10%. I am more cheerful in serving when i “purpose in my own heart” rather than someone saying do this.

  10. April 24, 2008 at 7:05 pm

    Don,

    How would you handle Matthew 18:20? In what sense is God in the midst of a group of believers and church members, if he is only in the individuals but not in the church? It seems to me the use of the plural pronoun and the verb “ye are” in 1Co 3:16,17 is a collective reference or corporal reference.

    Henry – “It may be understood of the church of Corinth collectively, or of every single believer among them; Christian churches are temples of God.”

    Gill – “The apostle having spoken of the saints as God’s building, of himself as a wise master builder, of Christ as the only foundation, and of various doctrines as the materials laid thereon, proceeds to observe to this church, and the members of it, that they being incorporated together in a Gospel church state, were the temple of God;”

    This thought of God indwelling the church as His Temple is not new, and it supported by the grammar.

  11. April 24, 2008 at 7:06 pm

    Jay,

    I know perhaps thousands of people that are happy giving their tithe. Almost everyone in favor on this blog have also said so.

  12. April 24, 2008 at 7:10 pm

    Jay,

    If I am to obey the Lord cheerfully in everything (1Th 5:18), why does the Lord give us a Bible that contains so many do’s and “don’t”‘s? Shouldn’t he just give us the Ten Suggestions and leave the rest up to us?

  13. April 24, 2008 at 7:46 pm

    Great post on this subject!

  14. April 24, 2008 at 7:51 pm

    i believe, like most, that we are 100% stewards. I believe, like most, that giving 100% with a proud heart is just as good as giving nothing. I also believe that personal standards such as giving 10% are great, as long as it is not a stumbling block to you or is enforced on others.

    Jason, Many people who can afford to give 30% can use tithing as the easy way out, just as much as anybody can use grace/freewill giving as an easy way out to giving less as well. Also, there are a number of passages in the Old Testament that provide support and foreshadow spirit-led/freewill offerings for the New Covenant Church age. So, No. I do not discount the Old Testament.

    Kent, The men who penned the word of God did not write a script with answers to the spiritual decisions you will make in your life. How much we give is a spiritual decision. Once we’ve inserted our own standards (or Abraham’s standards) to guide us, then for some us the Spiritual battle is already lost.

    Don, – The only thing i don’t understand about your discussions here is why don’t you teach ONLY Spirit-led offerings. You said it right when you said Spirit led giving has no limitations. Just because the NT was written, why would the Spirit be the tutor over just the offerings and not ALL giving?

  15. April 24, 2008 at 8:33 pm

    1 John 5:3. Click on the reference. Commandments or standards aren’t the problem, but whether we love the Lord. The heart is the issue. That’s the whole point with the New Covenant. It isn’t that God does away with His standards, but that we have a new heart, a circumcised heart, that will allow us to do everything out of love and grace.

  16. Stephen Davis
    April 24, 2008 at 8:52 pm

    Bring the tithes of your corn, oil, and wine…..Oh yes!! That is obedience?
    No. That is doing what you want to get crass gain. That is putting a pig in a dress and calling it a swan.

  17. April 24, 2008 at 11:01 pm

    Hi Kent, well you got me on the challenge re baptism/circumcision. Man, what can I do when you insist on Scripture!

    I think you know I am mostly just pulling your chain on that analogy. I did see somewhat of a parallel between your analogy on this last point of the Church = the OT temple, and the false analogy some make of baptism = circumcision. [Please note the “false” statement there… I don’t need anyone thinking I agree with the analogy.]

    So saying all that, I am just saying that this particular point is less convincing to me than some of your others.

    And I in the end, I would not say the NT teaches strictly tithing, but generous, cheerful, and systematic giving. And that usually means giving till it hurts in the flesh but rejoices in the spirit. (I suppose some would hurt giving the first penny, but that wouldn’t be generous, would it?)

    Regards,
    Don Johnson
    Jer 33.3

  18. April 25, 2008 at 4:53 am

    Jared,

    The three posts that Kent has put up offer a very clear and biblical presentation of WHY we teach tithing. But we do not JUST teach tithing. Malachi makes it clear that God expects MORE from us. He demands tithes AND offerings. It only begins with the tithe. There is a need to give for many other reasons. Our church gives to support missionaries and missions projects. We have poor and needy offering, sacrifical Sundays, offerings for pastoral staff needs. We fund our Christian school through offerings. So tithing is a start. It is a good practical starting point.

  19. April 25, 2008 at 5:00 am

    Davis,

    Hey diddle diddle, the cat and the fiddle, the cow jumped over the moon!

  20. April 25, 2008 at 5:31 am

    DON, If we are giving because God commands it, are’nt we giving of neccessity?

  21. April 25, 2008 at 6:12 am

    Jay,

    Consider the context of the passage that we are taking about. Paul was in a sense obligating men through conscience and command to learn to give by grace. He is not giving them an option. He is in a sense obligating them to give. However, he didn’t want them to give, and God doesn’t want us to give, because we feel we have to. However, we DO HAVE to give. We should give realizing that it is a privilege to have the opportunity. Nevertheless, the whole context of Scripture indicates that a born again child of God ought to give and give generously. This is not giving of necessity. It’s giving in obedience with a good attitude.

  22. April 25, 2008 at 8:40 am

    I’m going to deal with the relations of tithing to gracious giving in post 4 on this subject. Also hopefully we will clear a little up the law issue. Obviously it won’t be the last word on this, but it will help, I think.

  23. Stephen Davis
    April 25, 2008 at 9:04 pm

    My cousin once told me “We are going to treat you so many ways that one of them is bound to be right.” I think that it is wisdom to hear all sides of the story, so to speak. There is a great contingent of teachers and preachers who hold tightly to the notion of collecting/paying monetary tithes. How many ways can we divide scriptures on this topic? Here is another.

    Jesus said concerning the tares amongst the wheat: “Let both grow up together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.” Matt.:13:30

    “Then shalt thou turn it (the tithe) into money, and bind up the money in thine hand, and shalt go unto the place which the Lord thy God shall choose.” Deut 14:25

    Here is an interpretation: Those who eat the tithes of the corn, oil, and wine (fruit of the land) shall, as the wheat in Jesus parable, be gathered together into the storehouse (barn). Those whose fellowship is around the money shall as the money in Deut. 14 be bound and thrown into the fire.

    It is later that we find those with the money feasting in Isaiah 56. They have the money in hand because they are drinking the ‘strong drink’. These are called greedy shepherds that do not understand.

    These are found amongst the wheat just as Jesus chose Judas to dwell amongst the disciples. Judas, who exchanged the living, walking bread of heaven. As I have shown before, the fruit of the land is parallel to the manna. Both are called bread.

    “For, behold, the day cometh that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that comneth shall burn them up….” Malachi 4:1

    Who are the proud? Who are those who do wickedly? Look back in Malachi 3:14-15 Those who are called wicked are those taking profit (gain), who are proud (presumptuous). They are the ones saying to tempt/prove God wrongfully.

    It is much better to eat of this food rather than to exchange it for money. But, if you are as the mad prophet you will say, “Come ye, …I will fetch wine, and we will fill ourselves with strong drink; and tomorrow shall be as this day, and much more abundant.” Isaiah 56:12.

    Heaven is much to important to miss. We know you can be saved without money but can you be saved with this money bound to your hand. “Despising the gain of oppressions…” Isa. 33:15 sounds like the right way to go.

  24. April 26, 2008 at 5:27 am

    Proper interpretation is the way to go: literal, historical, grammatical, contextual. Allegorical interpretation is a deep pit.

  25. April 26, 2008 at 5:55 am

    In fact, false teachers (who twist the Scripture to say what they want it to say, many times via allegory) and false brethren are the tares that Satan has sowed in the kingdom. Their end is to be burned, even after Bible teachers and preachers have tried to reason with them out of the Scriptures.

  26. Stephen Davis
    April 26, 2008 at 10:14 am

    Allegorical is a deep source. God created it as a way to communicate truth. It is also a protection against heresy. Many subjects in the bible are only understood by means of allegory….like killing sheep ….like building temples….like exchanging tithes.

  27. April 26, 2008 at 2:08 pm

    Davis,

    Two of the three things that you mentioned are typological, not allegorical. The difference is that typological references are explained in Scripture; allegory is not. That is why it should be rejected. The tithe, however, is not typological, nor allegorical; it is literal. The tithe is the Lord’s nowhere in Scripture is the tithe said to represent anything other than the portion that belongs to the Lord.

  28. Stephen Davis
    April 27, 2008 at 9:44 am

    Irenaeus

    Then again, [it was fit] that Moses should give manna as food to the fathers, but Joshua wheat; as the first-fruits of life, a type of the body of Christ, as also the Scripture declares that the manna of the Lord ceased when the people had eaten wheat from the land.

    You see that both the manna and the fruit of the land are mentioned here as being the food that both Moses and Joshua fed the people. All of what Christian writers usually debate is on the food given in the land. The food I speak of includes the tithe of the land. The wonderful thing about this is the parallels that can be drawn between the two. The tenth part of an ephah of manna in the pot and a tithe of the land in the storehouse.

    The types, allegory, shadows of the Old always point to the New. Looking at the big picture, I would say that Jesus followed the Old in instituting the ordinance of the Communion. The eating of the representitive portions of bread and wine that represent his body and blood. When God said to eat the tithes ‘before the Lord in the place He has chosen’, that was a shadow of that meal instituted by the Lord Jesus Christ. The tithes were representitive tokens of the whole. ‘This do in remembrance of me’, said Jesus. ‘THIS’ as opposed to ‘that’ that they had always done under the law. That is, eat the tithes in the place the Lord had chosen. Now they were to eat representative tokens of His own body. The fact that the tithe could be exchanged for money completes the picture with Judas betraying Christ at that very first meal.

    Who is it that completely understands the mind of God? Can you say with utmost certainty that you know all types, allegories, shadows? How is it that you come to the tithe law and make it completly devoid of any prophetic value. You say to take it for what it is. Well…..do you. No. You throw away the specifics of this law and say that God means for us to give tithes of income. So then, the manna, the land of promise are not shadows of that food from heaven, Christ. Then God even in the law through purchases with the money show that there are ‘greedy shepherds’. Amazing that you conveniently pass this off and cast aspersions on those who point this out.

    Do you know that the prophet Amos makes commentary on Abraham’s oath to ‘not take’ of the spoils, of which Abraham gave a tithe? Amos chapters 2 and 8 speak of those who buy and sell the poor for silver. Here is yet another witness of God himself against this tithe of income business.

  29. April 27, 2008 at 10:54 am

    You are not pointing anything out from the Bible when you make the leap from manna representing the body of our Lord to the thirty pieces of silver of Judas received. It merely proves your ignorance of the vast majority of teaching regarding the sustenance of pastors and evangelists in the New Testament period.

    I agree the manna was a type of Christ’s body because John 6 clearly states that. However, the leap to Judas’ payment somehow being an exchange of the tithe money to sell Jesus out and a prohibition to give tithes in the New Testament church is not founded. You fabricated this for you own use. This is not a Bible interpretation, it is a fabrication.

  30. Stephen Davis
    April 27, 2008 at 12:39 pm

    “And Moses said unto Aaron, Take a pot, and put an omer full of manna therein, and lay it up for your generations.”
    “Now an omer is the tenth part of an ephah”. Exodus 16:33, 36

    So, here is the quote showing that there was a tithe measurement of the manna. Also notice in verse 29 that they were to gather the bread of two days. That would be a double tithe or a fifth of an ephah. Same as the law of the tithe of the land where they were to add a fifth to redeem the tithe. I am not smart enough to exactly parallel the two, just to note the seeming parallel of the two. Now consider the law of the tithe in Deut. 14. It can be exchanged for money. Nothing about the manna being exchanged for money but the first cousin or twin or replacement of the manna, IT could be exchanged for money. So I just cross the two and say, ‘to exchange the tithe of land for money is the same as exchanging the tenth part of ephah of manna for money.’

    To do this is more legitimate than crossing the tithe given to Melchisedek and making Jesus receive tithes. Seems God is challenging us with algebraic equasions.

    The one is same same while the other is contrast contrast.

  31. April 27, 2008 at 1:58 pm

    Melchisedek receiving tithes = Jesus, our High Priest, after the order of Melchisedek forever, receiving tithes = Christ’s body, the church receiving tithes

  32. April 27, 2008 at 2:08 pm

    Okay, I’ve refrained until now, and I’m not quite sure how this will be taken BUT

    All you who are gracious givers and despise the fleecing of God’s people by use of the tithe (10%)…..

    Put your money where your mouth is.

    What percent of your income do you, by the grace of God, give? Does he give you more or less grace?

    You’re arguing for God’s grace. How much of His grace do you have? Or are you using God’s grace as a cloak for your own licentiousness?

    Theory and theology is good. I love it. I hate those that dismiss it. How does your theology come out of your wallet?

    I’ll be gracious… just say whether it is more or less than the OT law required. For me, it’s more.

  33. April 27, 2008 at 10:05 pm

    Jeff Voegtlin,
    I would think before you ask questions like that or presume grace givers are stingy.
    First, grace givers could ask the question about how many of the tithers are actually giving cheerfully and godly? My assumption would be that the percentage is lower than those that give gracefully. Sorry for the assumption, but i think your assumption about grace givers is a judgment mapped out in your head, so i figure my assumption is just as fitting. Overall either accusation doesn’t prove anything.

    Second, may i ask for those that believe in tithing, what is the average that they give? According to Barna’s stats, it doesn’t seem like tithers theology is lining up with their wallet either.

    Third, licentiousness is not biased to those who practice grace giving. May i remind you that Israel fell to the cloak of greed while under the tithing law anyways.

    Fourth, the mormon cult gives more than any religion or denomination but that doesn’t confirm their theology.

    Fifth, The steward in Matthew 25 who gave 100% of his talents back to his master was still considered a bad steward.

    Sixth, it was only the pharisees who were interested in shortcomings of others while expressing how they gave above and beyond what the OT required.

  34. April 28, 2008 at 7:42 am

    Jeff,

    That is a very good question. I wrote earlier that 75% of the members of my church give at least a tithe. Most give more than that, because they give to faith promise. Our faith promise is $230,000 a year for a church of 290 total members, including minors. This does not include the personal giving they do from person to person. As near as I can figure, I give 23% of my income in the offering plate, and I am still an unprofitable servant. Does that answer the question that many seem afraid to answer here?

  35. Stephen Davis
    April 28, 2008 at 10:39 am

    “Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens; A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man. For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices: wherefore it is of necessity that this man have somewhat also to offer.” Hebrews 8:1-3

    The Jewish high priests offered stuff. Does that include tithes? We know it includes the blood of animals. In this Melchisedek is like the priests under the law. They have stuff that comes from the ground. The men that were with Abraham ate the stuff. The remaining nine tenths was returned to the king of Sodom.

    Also, you cannot make Jesus receive tithes unless you can convince me that Melchisekek offered blood. Because of the singular importance of the tithes that Melchisedek, it makes tithes under the New Covenant either totally necessary or totally irrevelant. Tithes under the old covenant belong in a big pile of refuse and waste. Tithes do not belong on the same stage with the offering of Christ. The tithes that you offer and that your congregants offer ….stinks. They are offered in ignorance and sin. Not appreciating what Jesus has done on our behalf.

  36. April 28, 2008 at 11:09 am

    Stephen Davis,

    You are the master. You are the man. You are the one who is convinced of his own scholarship and erudition. This is all without evidence, I am afraid.

    One thing I do know: Obfuscation and false exegesis are marks of false prophets, not true ministers of Christ.

    Melchizadek had to offer blood to convince you? You are either just bamboozled or ignorant of the typology of Scripture.

    We got it already. Every verse in the Bible says that tithing is refuse and waste, and you are infinitely more spiritual than the rest of us because you understand it.

    I pity you, and I am concerned for your soul. I am also sorry I have wasted time reading your posts.

  37. Stephen Davis
    April 28, 2008 at 2:02 pm

    If you were honest, in keeping with your theology, you would sing:

    “O precious is the flow, that makes us rich with dough, no other fount I know, nothing but the tithe for Jesus.”

    You do speak out of both sides of your mouth. You pay lip service to the offering of Christ, but you have bought the lie. You indeed have failed the test. That is why false prophets are to be among us. To test us to see if we do love God. Over and over the testimony of scriptures show your devotion to the doctrine that brings in the money is at the cost of the one great offering of the Saviour.

    You are angry with me for doing the homework. No thanks from you. You want me to praise you? ‘Having confidence by the blood of Jesus’ the scripture says. You have the believers hanging their heads down because they do not make the payments. You have it backwards, yet you are upset with me.

    I will leave you to your support network, who will give you the praise that you do not deserve.

  38. April 28, 2008 at 2:35 pm

    Homework, I think you’re still in the coloring pages.

  39. May 7, 2008 at 11:38 am

    Dear Bro. Brandenburg,
    I have listened, read and studied about tithing in the New Testament Church. I have personally witnessed its negative affect when preached as a requirement upon a congregation. A range of points are used to promote it. Ones salvation, a curse, robbery, greediness, disobedience, condemnation, rebellion, duty and many more points are directed at attendants to grievously persuade them that they must or should give at least ten percent of their income to the ministry. While I witnessed this abuse, it still does not invalidate the tithing message. Only scripture stands a chance in this challenge. Is. 28: 9-10 lets us know that doctrine is only established by the Word of God and that in a balance. I do think that Russ Kelly has made a diligent effort to use the guide in Isaiah. His arguments are based on this rule. As for rationale, why would any minister even want to challenge tithing since everyone generally believes it increases the cash flow. The only sensible answer is he wants to obey the Word of God more than reap more funds. Some comments have suggested 10% as a minimal starting point for New Testament giving. Even this statement over the pulpit suggests greediness if you do not. No matter how long the tradition has transpired or the practice endured, this does not change the fact that scripture is the rule. I would like to make a point in the scriptures also.
    The apostles in the second chapter of Acts had a congregation of over three thousand who sold and brought their possessions, disbursing them in communal fashion. If the apostles had preached tithing to their ministry then why was Peter and John broke, Acts 3:6? Surely they would have taken some of the money for missions. This fact is rationale and still does not prove the tithing message wrong. Just because Abraham and Jacob tithed is the rationale also that many use to prove their tithe message and it does not either. Because the Israelites tithed under the law many say, today we are better than the law so we should give more. This is rationale also and proves nothing. Again, the scripture is our guide.
    Paul’s rule for giving is unique.

    2 CORINTHIANS 9
    7 Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of NECESSITY: for God loveth a cheerful giver.

    Consider these instructions. First it is the heart that determines the giving amount. A law or a certain accepted amount could be percieved as insufficient but no one can judge a heart. Secondly if someone determines by themselves the amount they want to give, without cohersion, then there is nothing to make them begrudge it. Necessity is always linked to conviction like a law, a demand or a certain amount. Follow Paul’s guidelines and you will always have cheerful givers and the scriptures testify that God loves them. Just this one scripture throws serious doubt on the tithe messages that are preached today.
    Another point. God always considered the poor when making financial plans. Under the law the poor were not even asked to tithe much less required . The tithe message we witness today requires or encourages every person rich or poor to give a dime out of every dollar. Although this question uses rationale, does tithing reflect God’s or man’s system under grace? Ask Yourself, would God provide for and request mercy on the poor through history just to say the poor now will be taxed under grace?

    PROVERBS 22
    16 He that oppresseth the poor to increase his riches, and he that giveth to the rich, shall surely come to want.

    It makes no sense that we are perceived as greedy just because we challenge the tithe message. We challenge because we believe it oppresses the poor to increase the cash for the ministry and also the rich organizations profit from the tithe message. Also the most important thing is that we believe it to be unscriptural and ungodly in nature compared to Grace. We also believe those who defend it to be guilty of filthy lucre though this may not always be the case. At a time God winked at ignorance but now calls men everywhere to repentance.

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